Curse

Abbess · Jun 22, 2008, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Yet again, if i had an eternal blade, It would still be worth 1,000,000,000k. So they are a means to fow armor, oh darn! You won't be the only one with it anymore, how devastating! If Obsidian armor is the only thing losing value, then there is definately no real need for a nerf. Vabbian armor loss value but you dont hear anyone whining.

Avarre · Jun 22, 2008, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinn

I'm just saying there are counters, Einstein.

Counterable is not the same as balanced. I thought we had gotten past this.

PvE balance is usually, when it is at all, defined as balance between the abilities of classes. SF for solo farming is immensely powerful, which seems ironic when Spirit Bond was hit for giving the same thing - permanent invulnerability (with some counters).

I don't know, or really care, if SF needs a nerf. It just gets added to a long list of ways to win the game. Any economy fixes aren't going to be found by hitting a single build - a new sink for ectos or a major change to their supply might.

Abedeus · Jun 22, 2008, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Abbess - get a bonder and you can tank and kill in 95% of areas.

And the 5% is Smite Hex/Signet of Disenchantment. With earth build you have ward of stability available. But those areas are not profitable.

Abbess · Jun 22, 2008, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

"God Mode: Not available in every area." Still doesn't excuse it.

Ok so if we nerf SF, lets nerf 600 builds and 55 builds too. They are all different forms of invinci-farmers. SF is hardly a "God Mode". You are arguing an exaggerated form of SF not its actuality.

Abedeus · Jun 22, 2008, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abbess

Ok so if we nerf SF, lets nerf 600 builds and 55 builds too. They are all different forms of invinci-farmers. SF is hardly a "God Mode". You are arguing an exaggerated form of SF not its actuality.

600 requires reflexes. Can't farm if, for example, monster uses only spells and his wanding attacks are too weak to trigger spirit bond or retribution/holy wrath. 55 meets death when there is A SINGLE ench removal, any interrupt, LIFE STEALING, dervishes with rend enchantment, heavy degen that is easily applied.

SF IS GOD MODE. Invincibility to spells? Check. Invincibility to ALL attacks, melee and ranged? Check. No energy problems with right build? Check. Can be maintained? Check. Bonder that can eliminate degeneration/PBAoE damage and boost SF's skills? Check.

Productivity · Jun 22, 2008, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abbess

Yet again, if i had an eternal blade, It would still be worth 1,000,000,000k. So they are a means to fow armor, oh darn! You won't be the only one with it anymore, how devastating! If Obsidian armor is the only thing losing value, then there is definately no real need for a nerf. Vabbian armor loss value but you dont hear anyone whining.

So next month we have the increase in obsidian edge drop rates, eternal blade drop rates etc. and it's all ok still? Arbitrarily bringing a section of the economy down into a lower value bracket without replacing it reduces the strength of the economy. If you want that, I don't care, but accept that what you're effectively asking for with Shadow Form is an item specific cheat.

I won't hold it against you, I don't care at all to be honest, items mean nothing to me (my main runs around in Krytan Armour because I like the look, despite being able to easily afford FOW armour a few times over if I wanted to), I just think it's a sign of people who want the game to play itself for them while they feel they've acheived something.

Yawgmoth · Jun 22, 2008, 03:03 PM // 15:03

I'd hit both, although SF is far more important, a top priority. It's overpowered beyond any other farming build in terms of power level and number of viable uses and it's only used now for Chaos Plains farm simply because that's most profitable now, but it will change with time and imbasins will move to a different place or places.

And changing just Glyph of Swiftness doesn't solve anything - there's still Arcane Echo - a proper SF nerf should make it impossible to consistently maintain it in any way.

The best way is adding a line reading: "This skill is disabled for 60 seconds" and changing the duration so even on 17 shadow arts and with 20% enchanting mod it lasts no more than 30 seconds.

No skill of THIS power level should be possible to be maintained 24/7.

As for Chaos Plains I would only do a small slight change - make a 33% chance for the 3-Mindblade spawn to contain a different one - with different skills, with something like Leech Signet and/or Sig of Disenchantment and a Sig of Humility. (in the groups of 3 only not to make it much harder for regular teams that could get overwhelmed by the big groups running more skills to own monks with). The different Mindblade could have a different name or appearance so farmer can avoid the group, in effect plains would remain farmable but less efficiently.

Abbess · Jun 22, 2008, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Ok, yet again, there are substitutes to ectos. They aren't increasing rare item drops so i don't think there is anything to worry about.

And if you argument is being able to farm 95% of the map, I can do that with my 600 monk. And unlike the SF sin, i can handle interrupts, i can handle signets, i really dont have to worry about dying, and touch skills really don't bother me much. In fact, Mindblade spawns are so predictable i could probably 600 chaos plains. So what i really want to hear from you is a real argument. There are many builds that have "God mode" in certain areas. Sure the level of skill varies. Look at ursan. Maybe not a solo build but it doesnt take much insight to use. Its not going to "destroy" the economy because there are alternatives. Please give me something valid. I am tired of ripping poor arguments to shreads. Where's the fun in that?

MarlinBackna · Jun 22, 2008, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Paladin X

Kill SF= killing ecto farming as well as killing green farming and elite tome farming.

If this happens:

WTS ectos 20k ea.

Honestly people, do you want to keep the prices low?

Put into consideration, if you nerf SF, you will also nerf green farming (particularly if you are desperate on equipping your heroes) and elite tome farming (if you want an elite skill to help for your newly created character).

You kidding, right? Ectos haven't been that expensive in at least 2.5 years (which is pretty much the game's lifespan). Until they were farmed like crazy by 55's, trappers, 55's/SS's, and now perma-SF. Then prices dropped dramatically in the terms of a couple of weeks. There will always be a HUGE supply of ecto (as it is the standard secondary monetary unit) so ecto will never be that much. Period. And your arguments about green/elite tome farming is bull, as I was easily able to do both before the buff, and that is why greens aren't worth shit now.

I'm up for nerfing Chaos Plains. All it needs [Signet of Humility] or a new monster with [Chilblains]. (NVM @ Chilblains Screw non-updating skills in bbcode!
Bah. W/E

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abbess

Ok, yet again, there are substitutes to ectos. They aren't increasing rare item drops so i don't think there is anything to worry about.

That's like saying (in America) that $1 coins are substitutes to $1 bills. Yes, they are, but no one ever uses them at all.

Tyla · Jun 22, 2008, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Please read Chillblains' description. It has to target an enemy now.

And the AI probably still can be manipulated, even with Hum Sig.

Abbess · Jun 22, 2008, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarlinBackna

That's like saying (in America) that $1 coins are substitutes to $1 bills. Yes, they are, but no one ever uses them at all.

Oh ok your right. Because we don't use them my argument is clearly invalid. How could i be so stupid. So i definately think that Zkeys are no a viable trade exchange because people don't use them.

Seriously, give me a serious argument spare me the side of BS.

Abedeus · Jun 22, 2008, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abbess

Ok, yet again, there are substitutes to ectos. They aren't increasing rare item drops so i don't think there is anything to worry about.

And if you argument is being able to farm 95% of the map, I can do that with my 600 monk. And unlike the SF sin, i can handle interrupts, i can handle signets, i really dont have to worry about dying, and touch skills really don't bother me much. In fact, Mindblade spawns are so predictable i could probably 600 chaos plains.

You can't maintain Spell Breaker. Once they interrupt either prot spirit, spirit bond OR shield of absorption, you are DEAD. Oh and you can't kill behemoths.

SF Assassin doesn't have to worry about interrupts. SF can be interrupted only by a knockdown by a Shout, Trap or Signet (traps that knockdown only exist in Factions, same goes for Shouts, Signets only in Proph). Oh, and you have ward of stability.

There are 4 skills that penetrate SF and can interrupt its cast. Signet of Disruption, Signet of Distraction, Signet of Judgment (knockdown, preventable) and, when unlucky, Signet of Humility. Any monsters worth farming with those skills?

Quote:

Look at ursan. Maybe not a solo build but it doesnt take much insight to use. Its not going to "destroy" the economy because there are alternatives. Please give me something valid. I am tired of ripping poor arguments to shreads. Where's the fun in that?

Ursan did heavily damage economy already. Stop failing at looking at the facts.

Quote:

Seriously, give me a serious argument spare me the side of BS.

Funny, after that statement I know that nothing will convince you. Go away then, you are better than everyone, farm UW some more.

MarlinBackna · Jun 22, 2008, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abbess

Oh ok your right. Because we don't use them my argument is clearly invalid. How could i be so stupid. So i definately think that Zkeys are no a viable trade exchange because people don't use them.

Seriously, give me a serious argument spare me the side of BS.

Okay, my analogy wasn't the best one. But my point is that almost everyone isn't willing to switch their assets to another type of material. Here, I have another analogy...

Say I have a bunch of gold bullion. Everyone knows gold, it's great and it's shiny. However, copper is quickly becoming in demand and everyone can't seem to get enough. These guys sitting on a bunch of gold won't change just because the market is hot for copper now. Why? Because gold has been used as currency for thousands of years, and will always have value. Most if not all copper gets used in houses, businesses, and pretty much everywhere and is consumed in the process, whereas very large amounts of gold are never made into rings, but is used as currency.

See the analogy? ZKeys are really meant to be consumed and, however expensive, get dumped out of the market quickly. We have tons upon tons of ecto that never will get made into Obisidian Armor/Chaos Gloves because they are currency to us. Sure, you can use ZKeys as "currency", but as gold is the Earth's currency, ectos are the Tyrian currency. You won't make money by shifting large amounts of ZKeys. You do it by shifting large amounts of ecto.

kostolomac · Jun 22, 2008, 03:27 PM // 15:27

A little question to the "nerf SF leave other UW farming builds alone!" people. Two people go on a killing rampage , one kills 5 , the other 10 for the same time. So by your analogy only the second should be punished because he was more effective? Every build that can farm UW for ectos is destroying the economy , either nerf all or none. The game economy was sh*t before even ursan or SF.

Lord High Pwner · Jun 22, 2008, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Along the lines most of you are taking.... Let's nerf GW2 while we're at it. When that comes out whats going to happen to your ecto hordes then?

Abbess · Jun 22, 2008, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

You can't maintain Spell Breaker. Once they interrupt either prot spirit, spirit bond OR shield of absorption, you are DEAD. Oh and you can't kill behemoths.

SF Assassin doesn't have to worry about interrupts. SF can be interrupted only by a knockdown by a Shout, Trap or Signet (traps that knockdown only exist in Factions, same goes for Shouts, Signets only in Proph). Oh, and you have ward of stability.

There are 4 skills that penetrate SF and can interrupt its cast. Signet of Disruption, Signet of Distraction, Signet of Judgment (knockdown, preventable) and, when unlucky, Signet of Humility. Any monsters worth farming with those skills?

Ursan did heavily damage economy already. Stop failing at looking at the facts.

Funny, after that statement I know that nothing will convince you. Go away then, you are better than everyone, farm UW some more.

Ok I will throw the same phrase right back at ya: Stop failing at looking at the facts. SF Assasins can only do so much. You are only talking about survivability, which even still is a flawed argument. You are still ignoring AoE damage that makes certain areas difficult, along with certain well spells. Furthermore, SF builds are really not too effective in other areas! Mass healing and other enemy factors makes farming places fairly difficult. I think you would be suprised to find the list of places you can't farm, far outweighs the places you can't. The problem is you are so fixated on this Chaos Plains issue.

And Ursan destroyed the economy? Then i guess we don't have an economy atm! Just because certain things become more available doesn't make it bad. This is why i love PvErs so much. First they complain that PVP balance changes messed up their lives so we gave them a dual system. Now they are complaining that they got what they want?

Tyla · Jun 22, 2008, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abbess

Ok I will throw the same phrase right back at ya: Stop failing at looking at the facts. SF Assasins can only do so much. You are only talking about survivability, which even still is a flawed argument. You are still ignoring AoE damage that makes certain areas difficult, along with certain well spells. Furthermore, SF builds are really not too effective in other areas! Mass healing and other enemy factors makes farming places fairly difficult. I think you would be suprised to find the list of places you can't farm, far outweighs the places you can't. The problem is you are so fixated on this Chaos Plains issue.

You *can* always take a bonder hero and take a variation of the build for additional survivability you know.

An SF 'Sin can take advantage of the majority of problems, apart from the very few things, and when I say a few I mean very very little.

Abbess · Jun 22, 2008, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarlinBackna

Okay, my analogy wasn't the best one. But my point is that almost everyone isn't willing to switch their assets to another type of material. Here, I have another analogy...

Say I have a bunch of gold bullion. Everyone knows gold, it's great and it's shiny. However, copper is quickly becoming in demand and everyone can't seem to get enough. These guys sitting on a bunch of gold won't change just because the market is hot for copper now. Why? Because gold has been used as currency for thousands of years, and will always have value. Most if not all copper gets used in houses, businesses, and pretty much everywhere and is consumed in the process, whereas very large amounts of gold are never made into rings, but is used as currency.

See the analogy? ZKeys are really meant to be consumed and, however expensive, get dumped out of the market quickly. We have tons upon tons of ecto that never will get made into Obisidian Armor/Chaos Gloves because they are currency to us. Sure, you can use ZKeys as "currency", but as gold is the Earth's currency, ectos are the Tyrian currency. You won't make money by shifting large amounts of ZKeys. You do it by shifting large amounts of ecto.

Ecto is only a currency because it was chosen to be. However, by nature, it doesn't have to be. So if you only argument is being unwilling to change, then it by no means undermines the fact that substitutes will work just as fine. Furthermore, the fact there is so much resistance proves the economy needs to be weened from this ecto standard. There are substitutes and they therefore invalidate the need for ecto.

Lord Sojar · Jun 22, 2008, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Give the aatxe signet if disenchantment and expunge as well, POOF, fixed! Not like any of you are nice to the poor aatxe anyways; meanies.

Oh, and now that Avarre has joined the zerg, did I mention I have 30 science vessels upgraded with irradiate?

Abbess · Jun 22, 2008, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Give the aatxe signet if disenchantment and expunge as well, POOF, fixed! Not like any of you are nice to the poor aatxe anyways; meanies.

Oh, and now that Avarre has joined the zerg, did I mention I have 30 science vessels upgraded with irradiate?

Then bye bye 600 runs, bye bye 55 runs.... only VwK will work.